ICA Discussion

So after I posted my post about ICA, a friend of mine gave me a nice e-mail reply with what he had to think about my post.

Here is my post:

Today in class we had a nice little discussion about Interdependent Co-Arising and how engaged Buddhism works with this.
When looking at ICA and knowing it to be true, you can see that every action, every reaction, every “good” and “bad” thing is caused by everyone. Everyone can be held accountable for every other persons actions. How crazy does that sound? Well its true.

I was thinking about war. Well being in the military it kind of comes with the territory, but doesn’t mean I agree with it. Ok so what causes this bad war stuff to happen? Greed of course! I want something, power, money, oil, resources… so I come take it. Are we not all responsible for that? If we are apart of a nation that goes to war, then are we not responsible for the people the war kills? Kinda makes ya guilty… but also makes you happy, because with all the bad there is plenty more good (at least I think so).

Think of all those people who are happy, who love life, and just gleam inside…I take pleasure in knowing I caused part of that.
ICA you are my friend. “

My dear Lee Adams,

I was checking up on your web log and i wanted to let you know that I found this particular log interesting. I decided to read a little more about it in today’s greatest depository of knowledge… wikipedia. I agree that we are connected to everything in the world and our mutual existence is what defines our existence. That is, our perception of existence is an indicator of our own existence. I think therefore i am. (that statement probably needs a little philosophical clarification, but it’ll do for now:) ). However, i disagree with the article i read. (Here is the link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prat%C4%ABtyasamutp%C4%81da ) I disagree particularly with the degree that it says we are connected or impacted by even the littlest thing. From how i interpreted the article it made it sound as if everything in existence had the same and equal impact on your life, or that the connections are of equal strength.

I can’t think of any real sound argument to defend this view i’ve taken except for experience. I would confidently argue that there have been and are people, events, and snowflakes that have made more of an impression on me than others. The article also stated “everything depends on everything else. A human being’s existence in any given moment is dependent on the condition of everything else in the world at that moment, but in an equally significant way, the condition of everything in the world in that moment depends conversely on the character and condition of that human being” This from my interpretation is an admission that existence may be mutually exclusive, that we can exist and be a source of existence, which i guess is not really a contradiction, but merely looking at the argument of IAC through someone elses eyes and observing how your existence has impacted them… i digress.

But my main point was the magnitude of the impact that something has on you. I do not believe it is universal.

anyways
The real reason your article drew my attention was your reference to war and all the associated images of Sylvester Stallone going to town on bodies. While I agree your description of the causes of war is, sadly, true more often then not i would caution you about some of your wordage and if i may i would like to “enlighten” you with my associations of the words you used.

Greed of course! What is greed? Greed is defined as an intense selfish desire to have something. You know my opinion on what it is to be selfish so i will tell you what i think it means to be greedy and in doing so justify the statement, you made, to myself.

Greed is more than being selfish. While selfishness is a concern for ones own self-interest, which is an amazing and important thing so long as it is rational self intrest. Greed over steps these bounds. Greed is not rational. Greed wants the unearned. It is irrational to think that obtaining something unearned, undeserved, and from that, presumably, illegitamatly, will satisfy this “emotional” whim, greed.

A rational man holds true to the right of self determination and therefore would not seek to deprive another man of his right to exist as he should. (eventually i will have to explain why that is the rational thing to believe… to you and myself)

I want something, power, money, oil, resources… so I come take it.

There are three kinds of people in this world:

The producers
The parasites
The looters

The parasite and the looter are very similar except in the role and percieved strength of the perpetrater. The parasite is passive and weak and pathetically relies on others to survive. The looter is aggressive and uses coercion to perpetuate his existence by forcibly taking the products of the producer. This is the kind of person or entity you describe as the perpetrator of “bad” war.

I will not allow myself to be held be associated with, or held accountable for that kind of existence.
… so don’t even try… im warning you…
Thanks for the chance to think.

I hope that wasn’t too painful to read

Aaron

Aaron-

Though I do agree with you that ICA is very hard to agree with at times, I mean who wants to think that we are all accountable for everything around us, even those bad things that happen to good people, I do think that it makes sense that at some degree this is true. In all instances ICA does come into play and in some degree either us, or those before us that are connected to us are responsible for what “good” and “bad” that is in the world. In this sense, all things are neither good or bad, they just happen and when the effects cause reactions, those reactions are interpreted by us at that moment to be positive or negative… damn polarities.

I don’t really like to put labels on people like some philosophers do. I don’t think people can be put into static grades of what they are. A person could be a producer at one time, and then a so called parasite in another. At one moment this person is a producer because he works at McDonald’s, providing a service for people (not a very sound one) and also making the parasite and maybe some looters some money. In the next moment the person leaves his job and does the same thing to his wife, his children, or who knows. I think that a person is neither good nor bad internally. To me, people are people, and its the experience of the moment in which causes the person to be a specific way. With anything that person may have done in the past, reciprocation may take place that are long lasting and destroy other peoples lives. That is why its important for individuals to make sound judgments, to really think before acting and make the most reliable action they can. Thinking before acting can do a lot in life.

All of this is very complicated and still I have a lot of questions about it. The whole polarities of good and bad and positive and negative really are hard to get past. We even have the polarities of sound and unsound, who’s to judge those to set them as the correct and non correct choices? In a long way about going about it, there really is no correct action, just the action we take but hopefully producing a outcome that helps peoples lives by ending dukkha.

In order to end dukkha we notice The Three Root Poisons:
Desire (greed)
Hatred
Ignorance

Greed in obtaining and holding onto things that are not fixed, as everything changes.

Hatred for things as things do not cause us to hate, but our perception of those things is what causes it.

Ignorance in the understanding of those things that cause us greed, hatred, or delude us of our existence.

A good site to read more about this on is: http://buddhismteacher.com/three_poisons.php

All in all I think that if we accepted people as they are, and people accepted others for the same reasons, it would end a lot of the suffering in the world. Our differences are what makes us unique and what causes us to be so creative and have different prospective on the nature of reality. Understanding how things are is a journey that each one of us must take and I am still on this journey. Thanks for your help.

2 Responses to “ICA Discussion”

1. Alex Gordon says:

   April 2, 2010 at 4:58 pm

   Меня тоже волнует этот вопрос. Вы мне не подскажете, где я могу об этом прочитать?…

   When looking at ICA and knowing it to […….
2. Kylie Batt says:

   May 4, 2010 at 2:17 am

   Замечательно, очень ценная информация…

   When looking at ICA and knowing it to […….